(ITR JRSC) The wait is over...the full story

[rjaffey]

Did Oscar offer an explanation as to why your car was losing power with the J&S and was it taking timing out during that 180HP run?

[JRCivic]

Rafe...

It appears that, if Spunksters observations are in fact correct and NO lights glowed on the display, my hypothesis about the J&S's conservativism and over-protectiveness may hold some merit.

What do you think ???


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'93 Civic Si H/B with B18C1, JRSC @ 8psi
Best 1320: 12.68 at 110 mph

[Spunkster]

I'm not hearing any detonation at tip in, but it is lean for a second at tip in, but once i get the MAP black box in there it should solve that.

The J&S does seem to over retard, and then when it releases the timing it does it so rapidly that it causes more detonation. That or it's hearing noise from the vtec and then retards when it doesn't need to, and that start it in an oscilation.

I really think that the BTC should be the fist thing added, and then a Safeguard if you are worried, but my safeguard is disconnected at the momment, and my timing is at 18. it totally makes the car feel like it was meant to have the blower...you almost dont' need vtec, but when you do hit vtec, it just gets better.

I"m gonna try connecting the safeguard again i think, but put it at the minimum setting ans see what happens with the BTC

[Sonnyballs]

Spunkster:

I checked out the movies of your car on the dyno. Maybe the mic is a bit muffled, but it doesn't sound like your car is too loud with the intake on there (a good thing, IMO!). As you know, an AEM on an NA B16/B18 gets really loud in VTEC.

Was the JR intake noticeably louder than the AEM?

Thanks,
Sonny

[This message has been edited by Sonnyballs (edited January 28, 2001).]

[VTECPWR]

I love the sound of the AEM on my GSR. It is really not that loud at all, at least in the car.

[rjaffey]

Jim,

The J&S doesn't take out timing without indicating it on the display. If there are no lights on the display, it's not affecting timing. OK, I haven't tested this, but unless there's a significant bug in its software that's been there for the last 10 years, I'm inclined to believe John on this issue. That's not to say it isn't possible, it's just not where I'd first focus my attention in trying to figure out what happened. I know there are issues with the J&S over-reacting depending on where the knock sensor is mounted and the sensitivity setting. I've found it to work best on my car with the sensitivity set in the range of 10 to 10:30. At this level, it retards timing when I turn the BTC down. At levels of 11:00 and higher, random engine noise sets it off.

We don't know exactly what happened. Spunkster isn't even sure, so how can we pass judgement based on his observations. Spunkster says some lights *may* have lit up, so you can't conclude that the J&S was pulling timing without reporting the fact. We do know that the J&S was set for 20 degrees maximum retard. That means timing is retarded in two degree increments, so if there were just two LEDs illuminated, the J&S was pulling out 4 degrees of timing from one or more cylinders. This can amount to a significant power loss on the order of what Spunkster reported. For all we know, it was working correctly, hearing a tiny bit of inaudible knock during Spunkster's dyno runs and retarding the timing accordingly.

Spunkster,

Were you using the OE knock sensor or the one supplied with the J&S? If you were using the one supplied by J&S, where was it installed? What was the sensitivity setting? Did Oscar offer an explanation as to why the J&S was reacting the way it was and/or affecting your dyno numbers?

[JRCivic]

Rafe,

I am not passing judgement on the J&S... it is not necessary for you to come to it's rescue from me.
What I am saying is simply what I have been ALL along: The J&S Safeguard is not a power-creating device, but rather a protective component for the engine. Giving up a few ponies to err on the side of conservativism is not necessarily bad... however, accepting this and not bitching when one's dyno numbers seem sub-standard doesn't seem to be happening often enough.

In my broad observation of the members on this board, the fastest cars here DO NOT have a J&S Safeguard. This leads me to believe one of two possibilities: A) The J&S is so sensitive that tuning it properly so that it DOES NOT adversly affect your HP curve may only be done on a dyno... or B) It is in fact conservative and one must be willing to sacrifice a few ponies to shield the motor from potentially harmful detonation.

Rafe: maybe you could help us with a little experiment. Take your car to a dyno facility and make TWO pulls. One as the car sits... and then a second with the J&S turned off.

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'93 Civic Si H/B with B18C1, JRSC @ 8psi
Best 1320: 12.68 at 110 mph

[BurntGSR]

How many runs were done with the J&S on and showed this lower hp rating? One I bet. No lights but problems at high rpms? Maybe? I think this is way too sketchy to draw any conclusions. This is the type of shit that misleads people.

As far as making power, I still think this unit can be used to set your car a little more aggressive but at times it might lower power if the car is detonating for whatever factors be it a hotter day, bad tank of gas or something similar. I put down 231 WHP with a J&S installed and aside from me turning it off for my melted piston run, the thing was an awesome piece on my car.

[Spunkster]

Sonny:

Any car with a super charger is going to be quieter than in NA form...the blower mutes the sound of vtec. There was more blower whine with the JR intake.

[Spunkster]

rjaffey:

As for not seeing any visible lights on the J&S monitor, it was in tha sun such that you could not see if they were lit or not....they probably were jusging from past dyno runs.

I was using the stock knock sensor, i do have the JA& knock sensor installed, but never hooked it up. I mounted it in the spot where the header mounts to the back of the engine. But i never used it. I figured Honda knew the best place to put a knock sensor. I spoke to John at the time I installed my J&S and he said there was a place on the front of the engine, but he admitted that the instructions were based on an 89 integra.

Oscar explained that the J&S was probably hearing normal engine noise that is present when in vtec near redline.